OF course humans have a few proteins, brought about by duplication or recombination of existing domains. "====Naturally you would never be caught doing such a thing as quote mining. Hunter:Yet more circular arguments. A hallmark of proteins, and much of molecular biology, is marginal stability. 2004. "Biology reveals some very big differences between otherwise similar species, and some striking similarities between otherwise distant species. "but even conservative estimates of the number of protein sequences that are viable, for a given type of protein, are tiny. Now, let's apply this principle to Cornelius's post. like vertebrates. Of course novel proteins show up everywhere from fruit flies to humans. The authors hint at this serendipity when they conclude that their story of how this protein evolved is an example of “evolutionary ingenuity.” Evolutionary ingenuity? Give us some examples at the visible and molecular-level, please. Apples and oranges much?The functional ATP binding took 0.8 nanograms of RNA. This kind of “internal” symbiosis one organism taking up permanent residence inside another and eventually evolving into a single lineage is called endosymbiosis. Cornelius Hunter: Another recent paper explained that only a few percent of a protein’s amino acids can tolerate change at any given point in time. I'M SURPRISED I HAVEN'T FLOATED YET--GIVEN ALL THOSE UNIVERSES." Fresh insights? Does the necessitate falsification?Cornelius wrote:No, of course not.So then where is your argument? And by the way, one in a million-million is 88 zeros away from your latest claim. It is a huge problem for evolution, but that never stopped evolutionists because, after all, evolution must be a fact. "Or let's just give evolution every break. Another questionRobert you saidAnd how hard is it to build a heme binder? This is a monumental finding. "Again, evolution doesn't require a globin. Any other heme binder? And CHunter says,"...running millions of trials after millions of trials before finding even the tiniest of function." Proc. What novel protein fold or class of reaction do humans have that dogs don't? To extract excerpts to support one’s position, while neglecting the context, is to quote-mine. "A viable globin sequence may be a mere one in 10^150 chance. Sorry, but even a ridiculously high number like 10^5 does *nothing* to resolve the problem."10^5? "I'll do some homework. As the codon reading occurs sequentially, an assemblage of amino acids in the same order takes place, resulting in the formation of a protein. Also note the strange language here: a "pattern" has been falsified. Cornelius Hunter:"Evolutionary answers to such questions are like all their stories. It was Cornelius Hunter who quote-mined the journal article for support. What force will pull them apart?I'll do some homework. More specifically, did the system evolve rapidly upon separation of the proto-eukaryotic line from the remaining prokaryotes, or did it arise slowly, over the long course of eukaryotic history? All currently known nonflagellar Type III transport systems serve the function of exporting (injecting) toxin into eukaryotic cells. Natural selection is constantly running experiments by trial and error --countless trillions every minute-- and having the good foresight to know what it will need to save and which to reject. Sex Determination in Chickens: Evolution Wrong Again, Arsenic-Based Biochemistry: Turning Poison Into Wine. The birth of the cell marked the passage from pre-biotic chemistry to partitioned units resembling modern cells. In fact, there must be at least a half a dozen alternate solutions. "I cannot think of a good example of this on the molecular level! "No, of course not. 2004. Pedant:"Then why doesn't he stop doing it? But no great novelty-no new folds, no new class of catalysis. === replied: Right. It's amazing the total tonage of world's both groups have invented over just the past couple of decades. QUOTE MININGSeriously, both of your sides do it==============This is a typical evolutionary canard. Because he thinks it's the scholarly thing to do? Each has picked up several mutations over a short time, with many in the gene providing the instructions to make the virus’s spike protein. "CH: If I told you would it count? One of the main arguments that proteins evolved before DNA is based on the fact that the transitional machinery is based on a large variety of RNAs, whereas the transcriptional machinery shows no evidence of RNA involvement. An empirical observation alone is clearly insufficient, yet your arguments seem depend on this assumption. Peas are used as a companion rotational crop, a practice that returns much-needed nitrogen back to the soil. Peculiar. Acad. So, in the case of protein sequences, Cornelius has far more work to do as he fails to explain how these violations of the "pattern" (variations in the prediction) actually reflect multiple falsifications of the explanation the prediction is actually based on. Who knows, therefore evolution is false? Such tales are common in folklore and mythology. Not so much. But, about 10% of the mutations in his tables are gain-of-fct, where a "“A “gain-of-FCT” adaptive mutation is a mutation that produces a specific, new, functional coded element while adapting an organism to its environment""http://www.lehigh.edu/~inbios/pdf/Behe/QRB_paper.pdfShockingly close to fCSI and other ID definitions. And the hemoglobin protein is a relatively small one. Hunter:This is a typical evolutionary canard. To extract excerpts to support one’s position, while neglecting the context, is to quote-mine.This seems to be a common misbehavior among religiously motivated critics of science. The tired old PRATT you keep trotting out every other week?For rationalists, all must be in terms of true or false.That's better than a blustering Creationist who argues that if science doesn't know everything then science doesn't know anything. RobertC:"What is the argument--evolution is limited in rate, therefore it is falsified? In other words, the protein arose from a different type of protein that was pre existing. I wrote: But what does that mean? However, they're only used in very limited situations because we're not technically advanced enough to use them on the majority of vehicles.. Why did eukaryotes evolve from prokaryotes? "These synthesized polypeptides are more like little rocks. …~98 per cent of sites cannot accept an amino-acid substitution at any given moment but a vast majority of all sites may eventually be permitted to evolve when other, compensatory, changes occur.”, Did you buy the paper or just parrot what the abstract said? Protein Sci. These synthesized polypeptides are more like little rocks.For our purposes, these 1994 results have long since been superceded, such as by the Szostak paper showing ATP binding to be a one in a million-million shot:http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v410/n6829/abs/410715a0.html. The dependant realities in time and space can not exist apart from an independent source. , so here it is again. There are thousands of different folds, lets give them all to evolution as globin replacements. Only 23 of these proteins, however, are common to all the other bacterial flagella studied so far. Box 100, Cold Spring Harbor, NY 11724, USA. Of course this doesn't mean there isn't some degradation that is difficult to detect. And scientists have now started to engineer DNA sequences that "resurrect" these long dead proteins, and examine how they function. If you feel like it, there is a structural tutorial for hemoglobin:http://www.wiley.com//college/boyer/0470003790/structure/HbMb/Eval.htmlIn short, proteins are polymers (chains) of amino acids (unit). Author information: (1)Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, 1 Bungtown Road, P.O. 30 million trillion trillion bacteria on earth per generation. As the paper triumphantly declares, “Here, we report clear evidence and a detailed molecular mechanism for the de novo formation of the northern gadid (codfish) antifreeze glycoprotein (AFGP) gene from a minimal noncoding sequence.” Or as lead researcher, professor Christina Cheng, explained, “This paper explains how the antifreeze protein in the northern codfish evolved.”. Proteins are flexible, marginally stable, and easily (and frequently) deconstructed. The protein in question is a so-called “antifreeze” protein that keeps the blood of Arctic codfish from freezing, and the new research provides the specific sequence of mutations, leading to the new gene. So, in the case of traffic signals, the occasional violation of a prediction actually further collaborates the theory. One could only reach this conclusion if they completely ignored the underlying explanation behind the prediction. There is no scientific evidence for it. RobertC:==="It is an unlikely, just-so, story, for viable protein sequences are hard to find"Oh, is it? FACTOID = (The Free Encyclopedia)"A factoid is a questionable or spurious—unverified, incorrect, or fabricated—statement presented as a fact, but with no veracity. I can't believe it's all free. For example, we already have vehicles that use peer to peer communication to coordinate traffic. All we need is a primitive function, refined in five million trillion trillion bacteria over millions of years. There are thousands of different folds, lets give them all to evolution as globin replacements. If there is a near infinite number of universes, then so what? And how hard is it to build a heme binder? "We are a long way from having hard numbers"And thus these big-big-number calculations from creationists are very very weak evidence. They come in different shapes and are involved in various biological functions, including metabolism, immune response, muscle movements, and more.