Join us at Tracks 4×4 Tagalong and explore some of the most remote and picturesque 4WD locations in Australia. 202 km Back on the road and excited to be heading straight across to Birdsville. If you don’t have time for a crossing then it can be a really good one night trip to get your desert fix. And really, that right hand track looks quite doable. In other words, it’s especially suited to bumping along in the back of a 4WD across the desert. It’s pretty much guaranteed that on every avid Australian 4×4 driver’s bucket list is the Simpson Desert (known affectionately as “the Simmo”). Sand flags must be 300x290mm in size, Discussion in 'Australia' started by Slowpoak, May 11, 2014. With Tracks 4×4 Tagalong, you can relax and enjoy the journey knowing that you’re in safe hands. It takes up 170,000 square kilometres. Keep track of your fuel consumption too, taking into account that driving in soft sand increases fuel use by around 50% in diesel vehicles and can almost double it in petrol vehicles. “The Simpson Desert is such a unique and beautiful part of the world that I am lucky enough to have in my backyard. The WAA leaves the Rig Road where the Colson Track strikes north and heads directly east, crossing the Erabena Track before meeting the Knolls Track. Simpson Desert parks in South Australia and Queensland are closed in summer from 1 December to 15 March. You can find them here. Overview Itinerary. The nights often fall below 0C (30F), so make sure you take plenty of warm clothes and a warm sleeping bag. Get our latest adventure articles, videos and news delivered to your inbox. Your Trip Right are here to help, with all the things you need to consider to get across safely and enjoyably. At the time of writing, the cost of the pass was $171. Another option, which is an easy run south between the dunes from Poeppel Corner to the Rig Road-Warburton Track junction, is the track called the K1 Line. It’s important to remember that tracks are impassable when wet also, and there are fire restrictions in various regions Cross into South Australia near Charlotte Waters and head on to Mt Dare Homestead (located in Witjira National Park). Simpson Desert Madigan Line. Planning a camping trip? The Binns Track runs parallel to the Stuart Highway from South Australia to Timber Creek, NT where it connects with routes into WA. 2 hr, 70 km ROCKS ROAD – OODNADATTA CLOSED PERMANENTLY CLOSED don’t use this track at all unless you have permission from the Oodnadatta Police. to west is the most challenging, as the eastern dune faces are generally steeper due to the wind direction. The Hay River Track links the northern and southern sections of the Simpson Desert, inviting adventurers to traverse the dunes along the Hay River. It runs for 12 days and apart from crossing the North Simpson and Simpson Deserts also visits many iconic towns and places along the way. Essential Hay River Track 4WD Camping Guide. We don’t recommend this! The Madigan Line passes through 8 of the Simpson’s 11 distinct dunes systems. Are you soon to be crossing the infamous Simpson Desert? With limited time available, it is one punishing… Price: $2550.00 Per Vehicle. Our general area of operations for all treks & expeditions in 2014. However, its coverage of the Simpson is excellent. From my very first visit to the Simpson Desert back in 2002, I have been captivated by this deeply beautiful and moving place. almost 20 years ago: traverse the Simpson Desert via the route taken by Cecil Madigan’s 1939 scientific expedition.. a stern reminder of that. Old Andado Track follows the Desert’s western edge to the town of Finke. BLOG Winter nights often fall below freezing. The Simpson Desert is a remote, 4wd challenging, region, that is located in the northern areas of South Australia, southern sections of the Northern Territory and up into the South West of Queensland. Joined: Oct 3, 2011 Oddometer: 796 Location: Wimmera region, Victoria, Australia. Trip Information. Join us on this un-hurried 16 day tour exploring the Simpson Desert and surrounds with an experienced guide and a group of like-minded travellers. Simpson Desert Madigan Line Ricky 2021-01-31T07:25:54+08:30. We have popular tours along the Murray-Darling Basin, extended trips through the Simpson Desert, and once-in-a-lifetime trips to Cape York and beyond. This leads directly to the Old Andado homestead. Via the Old Andado Track (section of the Binns Track) from Alice Springs to Santa Teresa and out through to Allambi Station. Hay River Track - North Simpson Desert Australian 4x4 Tag Along Tours run probably what is the best value around, 4wd Hay River Tag Along Tour. HOME Despite yesterday marking the official reopening of the Simpson Desert after the summer closure, significant flooding on the eastern side of the desert and around Birdsville has resulted in several road closures restricting access to Birdsville and the desert.. west, with most travellers opting to drive west to east to make driving over windswept dunes easier. Most travellers However, like many parts of Australia, the period from October- December can be quite windy, although gales are rare. The mineral rich hillside adjacent to our Salinas Valley farm provides a lush and fertile home for our single-origin craft grown cannabis. If you’re thinking about exploring this magic place, you’ll need to be VERY well prepared. There are no towns or cities in the desert ; only a hand full of Aboriginal Outstations in the north and north-west, and a few pastoral stations. made of fluorescent materials, and the flag must be 3.5m off the ground. Weather is very hot in summer, but temperate in winter. Looking forward to doing it next year (2015) and then the Madigan line again in 2016. I’ve got nothing to prove. Open daily. Hema’s Great Desert Tracks Map Pack is the ultimate outback track guide. The shortest and most used route across the Simpson Desert can also be the most difficult to traverse due to traffic volume. Desert Hot Springs HOMEGROWN AT. then head north to meet the French Line. The Simpson Desert tours now are available in 7, 9 or 13 days tours and cross the desert via the French Line, WAA Line & QAA Line.These 9 day Simpson Desert tours travel a route that combines all three tracks, plus Coulsen Track, Rig Road & Knolls Track.. Our extended 13 day tour includes these tracks plus the K1 Line, Madigan’s Line, Birdsville Track and Hay River Track. From the beauty of the Darling River to the history of the Canning Stock Route and isolation of the Simpson Desert, we offer unique experiences for memories that last. It can also get quite windy at certain times of the year. Copies sell occasionally on Ebay and through book collectors at around $130 AUD. The Rig Road was originally built to allow trucks to access the oil exploration area, so it's a better option for larger vehicles; the track also retains a strong feeling of remoteness that can be missing from the French Line in the peak season. Hay River Track Located in the northern Simpson Desert, the Hay River Track stretches from Jervois Station in the Northern Territory to Poeppel Corner in Queensland. The QAA line is one of the most popular tracks in the Simpson. Carry at least seven litres of water per person per day, and emergency Around Christmas time we decided we’d make it happen this year. Straddling three states, the Simpson Desert is the largest parallel sand dune desert in the world. These north-south oriented dunes are static, held in position by vegetation. Your Trip Right are here to help, with all the things you need to consider to get across safely and enjoyably. In the Simpson Desert you’ll find some of the best four-wheel driving in Australia. One very popular track which travels through Aboriginal Land is the Hay River Track. The Binns Track runs parallel to the Stuart Highway from South Australia to Timber Creek, NT where it connects with routes into WA. Camping permits are required for Munga-Thirri (Simpson Desert) National Park, while a Desert Parks Pass is required for entry It gives you enough time to fully unwind and adjust to the gentle pace of desert time whilst discovering the ecological diversity of the Simpson. Simpson Desert Location Map | www.thebestevents.com.au . Maps - Hema Great Desert Tracks SE map – Hema Simpson Desert – Westprint Desert Park series (come with initial Desert Parks Pass purchase) – all these maps are available in paper and digital . Just like the Hema Desert Tracks Guide, Hema’s Simpson Desert Map is packed with must-know details. This is just a glimpse the Simpson’s history: The Simpson Desert climate can be described as ‘arid’. 8670 7805 Day four in the desert finished with some cross-country driving to find an isolated bush camp, which ended up being around 10km east of the Colson Track. The High Country is one of Victoria’s most popular & toughest off-road destinations. From Aboriginal explorers through to the early European settlers and up until now, the Simpson The Simpson Desert is close to the collective hearts of explorers all over Australia, its history and notoriety making it a golden reference on the resumé of any four-wheel driver. Its rainfall is low, averaging only 150mm per year. The Colson Track is a remote dirt track in Australia running between the Simpson Desert in South Australia and Numery Station in the Northern Territory. Proposed route of the Western Simpson Desert Trek Please note that the route corridor depicts the area that the trek will operate in and is not intended to show the actual trek route which remains flexible. The largest dune, Nappanerica or Big Red, is 40 metres (130 ft) in height. Both these tracks are populated with thousands of dunes so its essential to carry solid vehicle recovery gear with you. Approximate Distance: 3000km round trip from Pt Augusta. Simpson Desert: - French Line, Knolls Track and the WAA Line to Erebena (Damn these dunes!) though it can be put out of commission when it’s flooded. Travel from Hamilton Station to Mt Dare or via the Pedirka Desert to Dalhousie Springs. The Colson Track is a remote dirt track in Australia running between the Simpson Desert in South Australia and Numery Station in the Northern Territory. Northern Simpson Desert via Madigan Line Tour. Reduced tyre pressures are still essential. Empower your adventurous side with practical information from off the beaten track, Discover somewhere new to explore with comprehensive off-road trip guides, Find information and insights on all things camping, touring and off-road. HOMEGROWN AT. The first successful crossing was made by Ted Colson in 1936 but was much later, in 1962, before the first motorised desert crossing was made by geologist Reg Sprigg with his family. Simpson Desert Tours from Adelaide return to Adelaide - 9 days . The temperature can drop below freezing, and frosts occur on 50% of mornings. It links the Hay River Track in the east and the Colson Track in the west, with most travellers … There are no facilities, services or … The Simpson Desert is a remote, 4wd challenging, region, that is located in the northern areas of South Australia, southern sections of the Northern Territory and up into the South West of Queensland. The Lower Southern Arrernte, Wangkangarru and sometimes, Jeljendi Aboriginal peoples have lived in the Simpson Desert for at least 5000 years, The Wangkangurru people maintained a series of wells in the east of the desert which allowed them to live permanently in the Simpson, One of the first European (white) people to traverse the Simpson from south to north was David Lindsay in 1886, Pastoralist ,Ted Colson, and Aboriginal man, Peter Ains, made a crossing of the desert from west to east and back again in 1936, Cecil Madigan named the desert ‘the Simpson’ in 1929, Madigan made his famous Simpson Desert Crossing in 1939, In early 1960s, the French Petroleum Company made a series of exploration tracks which have now become magnets for 4WD enthusiasts, The Simpson Desert Conservation Park in South Australia was the first reserve in the desert, declared in 1967, The Simpson Desert Land Claim, heard in 2009, handed back 18,000km of land to the Aboriginal Traditional Owners of part of the Simpson Desert in the Northern Territory. Title: Microsoft Word - Document1 Author: HP_Owner Created Date: 6/30/2008 10:57:46 PM Learn more. The Madigan Line follows the route taken by Cecil Thomas Madigan’s exploratory crossing of the Simpson Desert in 1939. Click on the links above to learn more about each park, how to get there, facilities, what to see and do. While in the desert, self-sufficiency is essential. This track starts at Numery Station about 120km east of Alice Springs, and ends where it joins the WAA Line, A permit from the Central Land Council is needed to cross the Aboriginal Land. Madigan planned the ground crossing by aerial survey in 1937. View the top 100 off-road tracks and destinations in Australia for 2017, voted on by you! Our latest street & off-road GPS navigation system to help you explore Australia with confidence. In June and July, you can expect clear days with perfect blue skies, and temperatures of around 20C. The Campsites of his expedition in 1939 are indicated with (Black dots) and numbered accordingly. The tallest dune is Nappanerica or Big Red. The Colson Track forks off from the French Line and is another remote dirt track that runs between the Simpson Desert in SA and Numery Station in the NT. During October to March when it’s warmer, most of the winds come from the southeast. Enter civilisation once again in Birdsville to learn about its history as a border post during the heyday of the Birdsville Track as a stock droving route. Starting and ending within two day's drive of Birdsville (on a sealed road), we tackle the lesser travelled tracks of the Simpson Desert. for the simple fact that many of the climbs have been dug out from use. Overview Itinerary. Opening hours. The Simpson Desert is both beautiful AND challenging. July is generally the coolest month in the Simpson. trip before the clay on top of the dunes eroded. If you’re planning on crossing the Simpson Desert via any of the tracks which travel through South Australia, such as the French Line, the QAA Line or the WAA Line, you’ll need to purchase a Desert Parks Pass from the South Australian Parks and Wildlife Service. then head north to meet the French Line. The largest parallel sand dune desert in the world, the Simpson puts 1136 dunes in your path. Dust storms are infrequent, but do occur about 4 -5 times per year. has resided in the hearts and minds of lovers of Australia’s red centre; so make your addition to that proud history Rest day – no travel: Day 7. SITE MAP Closed between December 1 and March 15, crossing the Simpson Desert takes a minimum of 4 days and demands low range and high Epic part of Australia. Well not quite straight because we planned to divert south to the WAA Line. Permits for the Hay River Track are relatively easy to get are available via the Central Land Council. HARBORSIDE. Old Andado Track follows the Desert’s western edge to the town of Finke. DALHOUSIE SPRINGS – PURNI BORE. From Dalhousie Springs, travel via Spring Creek then Purnie Bore. Some of these dunes are 200 kilometres long, and tracks like the Old Andado, Colson or Hay River tracks have been made in the swales (the dips) of the dunes and run for tens of kilometres. To read from the start go to Part 1 or YouTube Day 14 - Mt Dare to camp beside Rig Road. The Simpson Desert really is a place that captures the heart. Another major route is the Rig Road, which is the longest and most southern route across the desert, and was once the easiest National Park. This popular walk is great for first-time trekkers of the Simpson. How to get to Old Andado. We offer a Northern Simpson tour which begins in the Corner Country of NSW and travels through to Alice Springs via the historic Madigan Line for 14 adventure filled days. Are you soon to be crossing the infamous Simpson Desert? You can apply online here. Learn more. Simpson Desert (Munga-Thirri National Park) ... Birdsville Track Trek Report (ExplorOz Website) Strezlecki Track Trek Report (ExplorOz Website) Diamantina Development Road Updates (ExplorOz Website) Arrabury Road and Cordillo Downs Road Forum Updates (ExplorOz Website) Handy Telephone Numbers. The track which CGG pushed into the desert, aptly named the ‘French Line’ is still one of the major tracks used to cross the desert. Add to cart. Via the Old Andado Track (section of the Binns Track) from Alice Springs to Santa Teresa and out through to Allambi Station. I’d dreamed about tackling the Madigan Line since first reading Crossing the Dead Heart. In autumn (fall) and winter, it tends to be less windy. a memorable and safe one. Simpson Desert Preparation. We personally found that this would be excessive for us, we have a 150L factory fitted long range full tank and we also carried 2x 20L jerrycans giving us 190L of Diesel. More than 1,100 dunes, shaped into long red waves by westerly winds, roll from Birdsville in outback Queensland west towards Alice Springs across the top of South Australia. but does so for those who come after you as well. Hay River Track, Simpson Desert. Dates: August 13th to 22nd 2021. Page 1 of 2 1 2 Next > Slowpoak, May 11, 2014 #1. Visit the Tag Along Tours page on this web site for more details. January and February are the hottest months of the year. However, we have to say that there is nothing like a July night in the Simpson Desert, spent sleeping under the stars. Simpson Desert motorcycle tour riders team meeting at 4pm day before departure at our predetermined motel, safety talk and next day’s travel plan. The Hay River Track map above outlines our journey, it runs for 350km from the Plenty Highway near Jervois Station to Poeppels Corner in the Simpson Desert. Enquire about this trek Simpson Desert (Munga-Thirri National Park) ... Strezlecki Track Trek Report (ExplorOz Website) Diamantina Development Road Updates (ExplorOz Website) Arrabury Road and Cordillo Downs Road Forum Updates (ExplorOz Website) Handy Telephone Numbers. Duration: 10 Days. as of March 16 2014 sand flags are a requirement to drive in the Simpson Desert. The Colson Track forks off from the French Line and is another remote dirt track that runs between the Simpson Desert in SA and Numery Station in the NT. And that clunk a few dunes back is still worrying me. The best time of the year is May to October, primarily for the purpose of getting Unfortunately, Shephard’s very enjoyable book (it’s a must for all Simpson Desert fans!) CONTACT If there’s a cyclone (a hurricane) in the Kimberly region of Western Australia, it might travel all the way down through the Red Centre to the Simpson Desert. A hot dinner, a warm campfire and good company were the perfect end to another day of mapping the Simpson. Buy The Track Guide The Simpson Desert is a hazardous and remote location, yet attracts four wheel drivers and motorbike riders by the hundreds annually. In the Simpson Desert you’ll find some of the best four-wheel driving in Australia. However, there’s also ways to experience the Simpson Desert WITHOUT needing to weeks to see it or advanced 4WDing skills (we’ll show you how below). S till rough in places, with some corrugations and sandy in patches also, use caution. Simpson Desert motorcycle tour 6 day itinerary 900km Brief overview. That’s right. In the Simpson Desert there's no dreaming of where the road leads, because being on the road – make that track – is the reason for being there in the first place. The main influence upon rainfall is tropical lows and cyclones. Crossing the Simpson Desert and the Strezlecki Track. Tour by 4WD from ADELAIDE via Port Augusta and Woomera to Coober Pedy Includes The Painted Desert, Ooodnattta & Old Ghan Railway, Dalhousie Springs (swim in thermal pools) then 3 nights Simpson desert crossing via French Line, Coulson Track, QAA & WAA Lines, Poeppels Corner Eyre Creek then Birdsville Hotel accommodation, … In fact, we’d advise that you buy this book before you go to do all of your trip planning. For the adventurous souls, there are caretaking opportunities at Old Andado. So for some days we will head east along some tracks that at some times may not be that well defined, if defined at all, we will be on the leg of the trip with the longest distance between fuel bowsers, a little short of 800 km. The 2021 season with Australian Desert Expeditions is almost sold out however we have secured a departure for our Back Track family departing in May. These signs of use are greatly increased when Look for campsite after crossing Mokari Airstrip. You’ll find information on road distances, fuel stops, supplies and accommodation, GPS coordinates, info about track conditions, tips for driving, points of interest, notes about history, wildlife and Aboriginal culture. PARTNER WITH US Along French Line until Erabena Track. The outback Queensland town of Birdsville is usually dead at the height of summer. The biggest Learn more. Therefore, the Simpson Desert climate relies on the tail-end of tropical rainfall events. Leave the Stuart Highway at Kulgera, and head to Finke, then drive to New Crown Station. A Desert Parks Pass is needed for the Simpson Desert. As well as the Simpson Desert, it covers every desert track right across Australia. dunes are on the eastern side of the desert, diminishing in size as a trend to the west. Remember: in outback Australia, summer goes from December through March. This sounds like a lot, but when you remember that the Simpson covers almost 200,000 square kilometres, this means that only a quarter of the desert is protected. is long out of print. Click here to download a free location map. Rainfall varies widely in the Outback, and the Simpson’s rainfall is one of the lowest in Australia. The French Line is the most demanding track in the Simpson, it normally has very soft sand and is slow going all the way (15–20 km/h), however the cooler weather and less traffic has the sand in the best condition it has been in for years. It straddles three states: the Northern Territory, South Australia and Queensland. far away from the soaring temperatures of a desert summer. and various times of the year. FROM THE BLOG. The WAA Line is less trafficked than the French, and also has less corrugations with which to contend. Temperatures ranging from -2 Celsius to 50 degrees Celsius have been recorded. How to get to Old Andado. Want maps you can buy that show you all the Great Desert Tracks? A detailed itinerary will be provided upon 4WD Tour booking and payment of the tour deposit. Travel through desert approx 156km: Turn north on Colson Track and travel to French Line. Use this master camping checklist to ensure that you don’t forget anything. In other words, the climate is one of extremes. Another track, the ‘Rig Road’, was also built in the 1960’s and was initially built to a standard for laden semi-trailers by sheeting the tops of the dunes with clay. Much of the Simpson is protected within four national parks (or conservation reserves), protecting a total of 54,338 square kilometres of land. In the winter of 1939 the party of nine, including a biologist, a botanist, a photographer and a radio operator, with 19 camels, made the Degree of difficulty: Moderate to Hard. The Warburton Track itself is used for access from the Birdsville Track to the Rig Road-K1 Line, The largest portion of the desert, which lies in the Northern Territory, is now Aboriginal Land, and you’ll need various permits to enter it. It's also important to remember that Day 5 – French Line to Dalhousie Springs If you’re planning a crossing, you’ll absolutely need a well-prepared 4WD and previous 4WDing experience. As an example, the drive across the French Line and QAA line is the shortest, the most used and the most difficult route, They vary in height from 3 metres (9.8 ft) in the west to around 30 metres (98 ft) on the eastern side. Track, the surprisingly smooth and straight Erabena Track, the clay-based Rig Road and the recently reopened Warburton Track, this desert loop provides a taste of the Simpson without the time and distance commitment of a full-blown desert crossing. Here is the full list of animal species in the Simpson Desert. Which is why we’ve created the Simpson Desert Ultimate Guide to help you start planning your adventure. In certain places like Purnie Bore, underground water bubbles to the surface and turns the desert into an oasis where life thrives. This table shows the average minimum and maximum temperatures for each month. Find the answers you need and get technical support for your Hema digital product, Register your Hema Navigator for warranty purposes and to get technical support, Discover where the best 4WD tracks in Australia are for you to explore, Read travel stories written by adventure experts from all over the world, Find out what’s happening at Hema and in the adventure travel community. It’s 40 metres high! Gents & ladies, asking for information and guidance ( maybe a good story ) in regards to the Simpson desert area. Both these tracks are populated with thousands of dunes so its essential to carry solid vehicle recovery gear with you. The feeling of hundreds of kilometres of dunes stretching out before you beneath an immense blue sky, where few people dare to venture is something you’ll never forget. It links the Hay River Track in the east and the Colson Track in the Despite yesterday marking the official reopening of the Simpson Desert after the summer closure, significant flooding on the eastern side of the desert and around Birdsville has resulted in several road closures restricting access to Birdsville and the desert.. If you’d like to learn more about the history, exploration, flora and fauna of the desert, then The Simpson Desert by Mark Shephard is the ultimate book to read. I’m taking the easy way out. The Simpson Desert is an erg that contains the world's longest parallel sand dunes. A detailed itinerary will be provided upon 4WD Tour booking and payment of the tour deposit. The best views on Earth of the Milky Way are to be found here! For the adventurous souls, there are caretaking opportunities at Old Andado. Simpson Desert, largely uninhabited arid region covering some 55,000 square miles (143,000 square km) ... One such route along the eastern edge of the desert is the Birdsville Track, which was used until the early 20th century by camel caravans led by Afghan traders. The dunes are also lower, but are often more technical as they can have double dune crests. Vast areas of the desert have been given protected status along the borders of Queensland, Northern Territory, and South Australia. Description. The Madigan Line traverses the Simpson Desert, which occupies approximately 176,500 square km in the heartland of central Australia. I just spent 6 days alone in the Simpson Desert, and my car still has to get me home. For communications, scanning UHF CB channel Track, the surprisingly smooth and straight Erabena Track, the clay-based Rig Road and the recently reopened Warburton Track, this desert loop provides a taste of the Simpson without the time and distance commitment of a full-blown desert crossing. food and water for another 7 days. We offer a Northern Simpson tour which begins in the Corner Country of NSW and travels through to Alice Springs via the historic Madigan Line for 14 adventure filled days. May, June and July are the ideal times to visit. Explorations for oil between the 1960s and ’80s proved unsuccessful. We calculated, based on beach driving, consumption of around 20-22L/100km in the car, but actually only used 17L/100km. 1300 361 033 Northern SA Road Conditions (Automated Service) 1300 794 257 Outback … Posted on: 28/03/2017. With the Simpson Track requiring 4WD and low range you will use higher than normal fuel and the rule of thumb we seem to encounter is double you normal track fuel consumption. Dalhousie – Simpson camp approx 130km: Taking the track from Dalhousie to Purnie Bore. Turn on to WAA line at Wonga Corner. Where: Simpson Desert. 1300 361 033 Northern SA Road Conditions (Automated Service) 1300 794 257 Outback Queensland / Diamantina Shire Road Condition … Yet, I hesitated… Over the years, Gary and I have watched the Madigan Line morph from something very few people talked about to one splattered all over the glossy pages of 4×4 magazines. In June 2019 we crossed the Simpson Desert via the French Line then took the Strezlecki Track back around to Alice Springs; this is our story. This tour has been designed to immerse you in the remoteness of the Outback and Desert. Desert driving experience is essential and you should definitely carry traction aids. It’s been on the cards for us since we did our trip to Cape York roughly 12 months ago. HARBORSIDE. The Campsites of his expedition in 1939 are indicated with (Black dots) and numbered accordingly. If you are planning a trip to the desert, DO NOT leave home without this map pack. Be aware that all national parks in the Simpson Desert are closed in summer, from 1 December-15 March. Cecil Madigan's route from his 1939 expedition. User ID Log Vehicle Date; 44744: Have done this trip 5 times now.